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Can't wait :_:

Started by Hyraldelita, December 04, 2015, 05:33:45 pm

Guru

Yeah those 108 gems worked awesome with the geomancer build too. I think it boosted one of her sword skills too. I always hated how her growth rates on the holy knight were so bad. The only reason I made her a samurai was because on one of my games I leveled her in the holy knight thinking it out to have good PA growth and she ended up having really high MA but low PA and was doing pitiful damage with her sword skills. She still ended up being one of my MVP as a samurai though =p. She was always one of my favorite characters. Took me a while messing around with her to get build I liked. Ended up sticking with the geomancer because it had decent growths/multipliers and she did decent damage with the abilities.

So whats everyone using in Jot5?

Nothing set in stone yet but one person I have a awesome build for already is dante. Open for suggestions though!

Dante - Dragoon (once spears are available he will be owning it =p )
weapon - spear ( for devil styles trickster )
Skills - Jump ( 1.5 damage from spear )
Skills - Devil styles ( 1.5 damage from barehanded )
reaction -  first strike
passive - barehanded
move - move-hp (maybe)

cloud - I think a mean damage dealing immobilizing limit breaker samurai

Snake - a covert bow wielding debilitating ranger or knight depending on the situation. Also when i need one hes gonna be my thief combined with barehanded to increase %. His hide reaction skill is awesome!

Link - White mage didn't work out too well because he has a bad zodiac combination with 2 of the chars. I'm thinking either summoner/oracle/redguard. Oracle came in quite handy with petrify against the skeletons but I definitely need another character that can revive so I'm thinking summoner.

Ramza - I think duke/animist

Agrias - being an ai i'm thinking either holy knight/knight or holy knight/monk. Think I'll use geomancer reaction ability or pa save

KingUrameshi

High five on the Link and Snake suggestions. :v/: :cool:
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You have allies... Friends that would risk their lives, and I am one of them.

Hyraldelita

how did we ended up talking about Agrias, in a post i made to talk about Delita?
Make one for Agrias!! Sob my Delita get ignored so easily :(

FFT have a load of build you can do to have fun , and a few which would be OP with all character, talking about it nowdays, sound a bit lol to me... specially talking about vanilla build, here in the jot5 i think, it will be pretty different.

Guru

December 21, 2015, 03:18:07 pm #23 Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 03:33:09 pm by Guru
You should be proud! Your topic is the chill spot right now lol. We will all be talking about delita very soon I'm sure  :P. Feel free to lol at me I haven't played vanilla in a long ass time but I was never into all those super OP builds anyways. I'm kinda glad they did away with that leveling down and faith/brave raising bs in JOT5. Anyways I'm talking about JOT5 builds right now. I've been experimenting a bit and I posted some builds I think I'm gonna try out when ch 2 hits in my previous post. We'll see though who knows what ch 2 has in store for us

*edit* I guess I should post something about delita too. Delita is definitely one of my favorite characters of the game. He had an awesome story and an original background. He did what he had to do for the good of the people but he was kind of evil. It may have been a necessary evil but I think it did consume him a little bit. I think he even cared about Ovelia towards the end but then we all know how that ends. So i definitely think Delita lost himself in the end. I always loved the battles with ramza and delita too. Even though they chose different paths when push came to shove they united and stood together against a more evil power. They have an awesome story to work with with delita and ramza and I can't wait to see what the JOT5 team does with it.

Hyraldelita

haha well that was my intention , i wanted to show all the people working on the project that even if the forum is silent , many are still waiting this more then ff7 remake ahahha

Aniway, i see absolutely no evil in Delitas doing, and as you say you do, can you please tell ONE evil thing Delita did?

and just to say about the end, is someone i saved from the shirne knights stab me in the end, i would stab her back too.. so i see no evil there also, more like retaliation.

Delita Never did a single evil thing, all he did was killing garbage people , while doing so becoming king to change the kingdom.
The game itself says that after Delita became king Ivalice have peace for a long time.

You can say if Ramza is the true hero.. Delita is the hero who got his hand dirty in Ramza stead, which get much more respect from my point of view  :)

Guru

Eh although I think Delita was a better character than Ramza, I think he soiled his hand plenty just not by his own choice. He was a naive guy but when push came to shove he got right in the middle of everything. I Haven't played fft in a really long time so all I can recall is the impression Delita left on me. Delita was a hero but he was willing to stoop to the same level of the real monsters of the game. Evil is not the right word I guess...but for lack of a better word a necessary evil. In my opinion he set out to change the world knowing that he too would have to change and I do think he lost himself a bit in the end. Honestly I agree with everything delita did and would have done the same thing. Except when he killed Ovelia. After everything he has been through I'm sure even he knew that dagger was not gonna kill him. Don't quote me on this but I believe he even said that he would give his life for her or something like that. And even if he did think he was gonna die...instead of being like ah shit well at least I accomplished my goal, Ovelia is in power now and things will be different ( which is what I think he would have done when he first set out to change the world ). He instead decides on killing her, which either way I look at it was not in the benefit of the people. It may be debatable if killing her was evil or not, but I do think it shows that war changes even heroes.

Just to clarify still love delita lol

3lric

Delitas motivation was for the greater good but the fact that he did get his 'hands dirty' actually kinda goes hand in hand with that fact that he did indeed stoop to those levels of grey area good guy/bad guy.

Yes in the end Delita led ivalice into a peaceful period, however the road to him becoming a king was not purely as a saint.
  • Modding version: PSX

Hyraldelita

Well i do completely Agree that Delita is no Saint at all, and i would not even say a hero.

What i love about Delita, is the fact that in all FF series character, he is the one Which most represent a real human behavior in that kind of situation, he could have been destroyed by despair, or act the way he did.

That is why i see no evil in his action but more like a real and understandable behavior from the point of view of how humans are, more then heroes or saints that you can find in most games.

And if you come out from the Game point of view, when someone stabs you , knowing or not that stab wont kill you , you will retaliate in most cases.

Guru:

Delita do says that he would have given up his life for her, but that doesnt mean that if she tried to kill him he would not react at all.. it really is a different situation don't you think?

I played FFT for 19 years XD and i still play it from time to time, since is my favourite game.
And this is Delita's quote in war of the lion:

To save her life, i would gladly give my own.

it doesn't mean, if she try to kill me i will stand and die xD

I do agree with Elric that says Delita become kinda grey , but he never cross the line, the only "Innocent" guy he does kill in the whole game is the orlandu fake, and as Elric also said, he did it for the greater good, and to save orlandu too.

It might me been see as a way to use people, and maybe it is, but it does benefit everyone in the end.

I dont know, i see in Delita a lot of "Deceiving people" and use them , but everytime is to gain one step closer to solve bigger problems, and i think that's the way a man with real guts would act is a arsh and real world.

I see this message when i see Delita actions:

If you want to obtain something BIG , you can't do it with words and nice behaviour, and that is HOW thing really are in my point of view.
And this is the reason why he is NO HERO and no saint, cause that kind of people usually reach the same things Delita did but with only good actions, and lots of nice words, which is nice and cool but pretty much unreal!!

I hope i have made my point of view clear, English is not my main language XD

KingUrameshi

I would say Delita is definitely more on the evil side than neutral side in his behavior. He doesn't care if he has to use people to get what he wants, he kills indiscriminately when he has to (with emphasize on has to) and he is not above deceiving even his best friend Ramza even though he knows Ramza would do his best to see Delita's way of looking at things. The one thing that really stands out in my mind is when he killed Goltana. Even though Goltana was incompetent towards the end of the Lion War, Delita still pleaded fealty to him then kills him in order to get his revenge on the nobles. Delita has no honor or morals and has no need for them and I wouldn't necessarily put him into the neutral category because of that. He is very much like Wiegraf who literally sold his sold to the devil for power and I can't really say Delita wouldn't do the same but maybe that's the difference between the two.

Also I am not sure how accurate I am but I think Delita might have had a hand in the death of the leader of the Black Sheep, Baron Grimms who died on the battlefield due to an arrow. Seems suspicious that Baron Grimms would die from an arrow while leading troops where commanders are usually protected from that sort of thing, and then Delita gets promoted right after.

Having said all that I still agree with everything Delita did and the way he thought. He was a guy treated like shit by the world at large, lost everything and it takes being a little evil in order to combat the scummy people the world was infested with. If Delita is evil than the world he lived in was a complete cesspool.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You have allies... Friends that would risk their lives, and I am one of them.

Guru

Yeah I agree with it being a grey area that's why its so hard to put him in the evil category. Even if i do think he is slightly "evil"(for lack of a better word  :P) I would still call Delita a hero. Heroes don't have to be saints or anything. He still stood up for for the people and accomplished something ramza could not have.

and he does represent a more human reaction to everything. Which is one of the things that really makes you relate and feel for him.

just to point out too I'm not sure exactly what was said...but the fake orlandu guy willingly gave his life(course not sure if delita deceived him or not lol)

And I remember reading somewhere that he let orlandus kid and the assassin who was sent to kill him both live. That definitely says something about his character right there. Too bad his kid ends up dying by he churches hand if i remember right  :lol:

I still stick by what i said about ovelia. I agree that giving your life for somebody might change if that person tries to kill you...but I still think killing her shows that he has changed. Plus from her point of view he killed ordlandu's kid, ramza, alma and everyone else and she thought she was next. His reaction was just a selfish act and if they would have both died the church most likely would have rose up to power....and churches with power never ends well. It could have destroyed everything that he fought so hard to change.

Quote from: KingUrameshi on December 22, 2015, 03:02:49 pm
Also I am not sure how accurate I am but I think Delita might have had a hand in the death of the leader of the Black Sheep, Baron Grimms who died on the battlefield due to an arrow. Seems suspicious that Baron Grimms would die from an arrow while leading troops where commanders are usually protected from that sort of thing, and then Delita gets promoted right after.


I'm sure it was no coincidence anyways lol

Gotta say I always liked wiegraf and milinda? too (surprised I remember all this shit lol)

Hyraldelita

If someone point a gun at me, and you shoot to save me, shooting is a evil action, but the intention behind it is good.

Delita was sick of being used , and for the sake of revenge he killed all the nobility he could.

And take advantage out of it.

As urameshi said, Delita has no honor, but he does have moral , since he never killed Olan and Balmafula, even if he could easily do it, and balmafula even tried to kill him.. this says a lot about Delita.

For me is like if he suppress his good side, knowing that being good only bring misfortune and injustice to the weak people.

It,s true the baron grim die , but also the game NEVER mention even from far, that Delita have killed him, even if story wise, it could really be possible.

When Delita kill Orlandu fake, i think that guy is a volontary from the church , pretty sure about it, still dunno he if got deceived or not, but with that action Delita mean to help Ramza making orlandu "Dead" and able to escape.

Plus if you guys remeber, Delita use Ramza but he is definitely not willing to, Balmafula at the church tells him , he is using his friend, and he get mad at her, i think because Delita feel like being Ramza friend untill the end, and im pretty sure about it.

Since Delita last words before the game end, are pointed at Ramza.
To me it looks like "After all i've done , i saved everyone except myself".

Go at 1:33 if you don't remeber.. do you think someone would think about someone else birthday if he was the evil guy people says? After he become king he has no meaning to be nice with Ovelia but still his reaction doesn't looks fake to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQI42hYFKAA

he definitely knows at the end, he saved Ivalice, but was left with Nothing for himself. Probably the most sad character in every games i played. I could REALLY feel Delita's loneliness at the end.

Plus i think Ovelia Deserved to die so much, as she is probably the most stupid character in the game.
WHY does she thing Delita killed Ramza? He had no reason to do so.. she didn't even asked,and even if he used and deceived a lot of people, it always ended in Ovelia/Ivalice/Ramza favour, if not for Delita Ovelia would have been long dead, plus the war would have continued making lot more people suffer, plus Orlandu would have died also... i will never understand..
Plus if she cared about ramza like that, and alma was her only friend as she said , WHY wasn't she at the funeral like olan and balmafula O_o
Delita seems to order Ovelia around during the game, but only because she is dumb, the game never let you think, he treat her in a bad way.
And probably , even if this is only my supposition, Delita decide to stab ovelia back since he knew, she would have never trusted him, even if he said the truth, because he had to lie a lot to gain what he gained.

and can i be damned if im not right, the game says that after ALL delita passed, and ending up with nothing, he was still able to reign and keep ivalice in peace.
If that is not the best char ever i dunno who can be.


KingUrameshi

Quote from: Hyraldelita on December 22, 2015, 10:49:32 pm
As urameshi said, Delita has no honor, but he does have moral , since he never killed Olan and Balmafula, even if he could easily do it, and balmafula even tried to kill him.. this says a lot about Delita.


This is probably way closer to the truth than what I stated. I feel like Delita stabbed Ovelia in the end as a way for the creators to show how Delita wasn't sure of anything anymore. Like he stabbed her because he had gained what he wanted but was at a lost as what to do with himself and as I said earlier on closer examination of Ovelia, she came off as a spoiled brat and contradicted herself through out the game at times so in the end Delita was ridding the people of another spoiled noble. I feel like Ovelia is a lot like Ramza only unwilling to be as unselfish as Ramza was. I don't think Delita was happy at all about killing Ovelia but I am not sure that he hadn't had it planned if she were to step out of line.

I think Delita is an excellently written character only rivaled by Wiegraf and Miluda. The back and forth that Ramza has with Miluda on Lenalia Plateau made me fall for this game immediately as well as the back and forth between Ramza and Weigraf through out the game.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You have allies... Friends that would risk their lives, and I am one of them.

Hyraldelita

i do agree with wiegraf and miluda, but i didnt like that a idealist like wiegraf end up being super corrupted for revenge.

That is why i like more miluda then wiegraf story talking.

And no i REALLY think Delita would have never killed Ovelia, he became king so he have the main power, Queen is never as strong as a king in terms of power, and even if she was , Ovelia is no Evil, she is just dumb.

Delita except for the Orlandu clone , never kill anyone who is not evil or currupted.

Nyzer

December 24, 2015, 01:37:30 pm #33 Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 12:31:45 pm by nyzer
I never really got the impression that Delita "used" Ramza in FFT. There were many times in which Delita took advantage of Ramza's actions, but to outright use him as a pawn would imply that Delita was directing Ramza in some way and he really wasn't - he just went with what he correctly expected Ramza to do, and actually helped him out on a few occasions. At no point did he feed Ramza misinformation or try to strong-arm him into doing his dirty work.

Of course, to everyone in the game, it looked like he was, because so much of what Ramza did turned out to benefit him. When, really, it was just a case of the two of them having very similar goals. Both of them wanted to work towards making Ivalice a better country. Their methods were completely different, though: Delita grimly accepted the way things were and dove headfirst into the darkness, willing to plow through it in order to achieve his goals. Ramza ran away, discarding his name and title as he fell into depression - until the Ovelia situation was thrown in his face.

Neither of them could have done the work the other did. Ramza rallied a squadron of allies to his cause out of sheer virtue, and made himself a target for those benefiting off others' misery. Delita did the dirty behind-the-scenes work that took care of most of the people responsible. Ramza couldn't have done what Delita knew needed to be done - and Delita couldn't have won over so many people the way Ramza did. Delita's own allies thought he was more evil than he actually was, because they saw how easily he could stoop to such depths, not realizing he only did what he thought was purely necessary.

Remember that when he kills Ovelia, it's only after being wounded by her sudden assassination attempt, accusing him of using and discarding Ramza when the truth was that Ramza chose that path. Delita couldn't have stopped him even if he'd tried.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

Pandemoniu

I just wanted to pop in and say that I don't agree with the connotations floating around here that "Ovelia deserved her death", as I feel that's too extreme and goes too far with "apologizing" for what is ultimately a tragic scene.

Also, Merry Christmas!  :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Hyraldelita

merry x mas XD
And nyzer i LOVED your whole comment and i do agree 100% to what you wrote man! absolutely 100%.

When i said Ovelia deserved it, its from the point of view of how much stupid a noble wanna be can beshe just run and get defended from the start to the end, without taking a SINGLE usefull action for the whole game.

It's not that i wanted her dead, but after what she did , she deserved it in some ways.

Nyzer

December 26, 2015, 08:42:22 am #36 Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 12:30:27 pm by nyzer
Deserved? I disagree. She was never a fighter or a schemer; she spent most of her life in monasteries. Sure, Alma did too, but Alma also spent a fair bit of time at home, surrounded by a family of warriors, and lamenting the fact that she couldn't join her brothers. There wasn't much else that Ovelia could have done. It doesn't help that literally the entire nobility and the Church was doing their best to control and/or kill her for the entirety of the game.

You're also plainly, simply, wrong. Not only did Ovelia participate in the fights when she was attacked, but she also attempted to assassinate Delita after she came to the conclusion that he was an evil psychopath.

The only way in which I'd agree that she "deserves" her death is that she fails to mature beyond the "black and white morality" mentality the way Delita and even Ramza did, and thinks that because Delita used her and benefited from Ramza's actions, he's evil and deserves to die - which in turn forces Delita's hand.

But even that isn't clear-cut, because of the fact that she spent her last couple years being screwed over so completely that she wasn't even sure about her own identity anymore. So you can't really blame her. Nothing about her death is simple, and that's exactly the way it's intended.

She attempts to kill Delita because she can't trust him. Delita knows there's no way to convince her otherwise - knows there's no way to end things peacefully - knows that letting her live as a hostage will only do more harm than good both to his rule and to the country in general - knows she doesn't deserve to die. And the only person Ovelia could have really trusted, who would have been able to calm her down and help her figure things out, is presumed dead, so she can't simply walk the same path Agrias did.

Think about it. If Ramza's squad hadn't been there to take Agrias into their ranks, Delita would definitely have had to have her killed. She deferred to Ramza's judgement when it came to Delita, but on her own, Delita wouldn't have opened up to her the way he did Ramza, and she never would have accepted the necessity of leaving Ovelia in his custody.

QuoteI feel like Delita stabbed Ovelia in the end as a way for the creators to show how Delita wasn't sure of anything anymore.


Honestly, it's more like it was to show how quickly things fell apart for Delita without Ramza's support. Ramza was a beacon of righteousness in Ivalice, and everyone who interacted with him for more than five minutes knew it too. It basically allowed him to act as a middleman between Delita and the people like Agrias who might have opposed him. Without that dynamic in play... well, we've all seen the ending scene.

It's worse than just that, of course, because Delita actually had a lot in common with Ovelia, and he could have formed that dynamic with her, too. A lot of their interactions have Delita opening up, even if it is part of his plan to use her (using her to ascend to the throne isn't mutually exclusive with bonding with her, and his frustrations and promises seem sincere). But they never had the time. Neither of them trusted the other enough for their relationship to last.

And to edit this post yet again: this complexity of the relationship between Delita and Ramza is something I really have to praise Jot5 for.
Delita's personality has obviously deteriorated a bit after having to kill Ovelia, so he's somewhat paranoid about what Ramza might do - while it's implied that Ramza suspects Delita of having a hand in her death. Despite that, they still trust each other to some extent, which is why Delita has set Ramza up with a dukedom and a protective fake identity, and why Ramza allows himself to remain in a gilded cage.

I've deliberately kept myself away from reading too many spoilers in the Jot5 development board, so I don't know where it ultimately goes beyond Ch. 1, but so far I really like the way Elric went with it. It was a completely believable direction that adds new development to their relationship and even falls in line with the general pattern of the original FFT.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

Hyraldelita

Well even if i agree with most part of this post, i still can't see Ovelia like you do, She fought in the battle, simply because they were surrounded. its not like had a choice..

Even if it's true that she didn't live in a castle with warrior, that doesn't excuse her passive behaviour, at least in my opinion.

living in a good family doesn't make you a saint, and living in a bad one doesn't make you a killer.

Anyway i tried to say that when i write "Deserve" it's that i wanted her dead, but looking at the situation she really took a decision based on the black or white thing you said, she didn't really reasoned much...

Of course she was a victim of everything that happened, but Delita never really explain his action to her, and this is his fault too.

But Delita also , have no trust in people , this story its lot more complicated then people think it is.

like 90% of people blame everything on Delita and think he is evil. And that really upset me XD

Guru

Yeah he's evil I tell you :twisted: lol jk I don't blame anything on delita... much to the contrary. I've said I actually see delita as a hero. I just don't think of ovelia as some dumb little puppet who should have died. She didn't have to fight she could have just sat in a corner and been like omg omg save me delita instead she tries to help with her magical barrier and staff. Plus like nyzer said she tries to kill delita in the end, that took some balls. But to say that is delita's fault is wrong too. Nyzer makes a good point on the ending and thats pretty much what i took out of the ending was that in the end both of them have lost themselves and wasn't sure of anything anymore. The sad part was delita was trying to open up to her...but she couldn't trust him. Which is understandable she did witness that scene with both oran and that assassin and she walks away at a point where it seems like he is going to kill them both. Plus as far as she knows ramza and alma are both dead after being used and tossed away by delita. I believe he truly cared about her, he didn't have to bring her flowers on her birthday and if he wanted her dead he could have done it in a much easier manner.

So in short its not anybody's fault, I don't think he's evil and it sucks what happened but I do think he could have handled it differently.

Oh and I also like what JOT5 does with delita's story so far. I haven't seen much yet but I like how his character is portrayed, it seems to really fit his character and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing where it leads too.

Hyraldelita

Agree on that line about jot5, but i also think Delita would not use people like romar and brother, dunno why that always looked like he is the boss of a gang more then the king of a kingdom with these 2 XD

I do like them and the story, but i would rather see them not related to Delita, since usually, even as king Delita always take care of his own buiness since he trust no one, except Ramza in my eyes.

i really REALLY hope there will be lot of interaction between Delita and Ramza in jot5 and that i can use King Delita and the game end :_: